Prude or Professional? by Courtney Remes
posted on 6/11/09 by Meghan Wilker and Nancy LyonsUPDATE (6/12): Courtney Remes, Dave Schroeder, Nancy Lyons and Meghan Wilker met on Friday, June 12 and collaborated on a response to this issue. Read it here.
UPDATE (6/15): Hoss Gifford responded. Read it here.
Today we received the following email from a respected colleague outlining her experience at a recent Flash developer conference in Minneapolis. We asked for her permission to post it here in the hopes of sending a very strong message to the conference organizers and sponsors, but also to the Interactive community at large. It's hard enough for women to be taken seriously in the technology space. Certainly, there are plenty of successful, celebrated women here. But when we hear about situations like this we realize that, in spite of all the progress we've made, we still have such a huge fight ahead of us.
Don't get us wrong, we are not women who can't handle off-color humor, or provocative messages, or even erotic digital art. But each of these has its place. Paying for a professional conference and being subjected to this kind of content is infuriating.
Let's talk about the content: was it reviewed by the program's producers? If so, they failed. If not, they failed.
As managers of a Minneapolis-based Interactive shop, we know the Flashbelt demographic is largely young, white males (in fact, we saw many of them at the Flashbelt afterparty at Nye's Polonaise Room last night). Is this the standard we're setting for them as professionals?
If, after reading this post, you find this as abhorrent as we do, then do something about it.
- Contact the event organizers and make them aware of your concern over this kind of content being celebrated at their events.
- Contact the event sponsors and tell them how this impacts your impression of their products and services.
- UPDATE (6/11): Dave Schroeder, the Flashbelt organizer, has been very responsive both privately (via emails to us, Courtney and others who have emailed him directly) and publicly (with an open letter on the Flashbelt site).
- UPDATE (6/12): Dave Schroeder, Courtney Remes, Nancy Lyons and Meghan Wilker met this morning and had a great discussion. We're working together on a united response, which will be posted here as soon as it's done. This has obviously touched a nerve with a lot of people. Let's keep the dialogue going, and let's keep it positive and respectful. We finished our response! Read it here.
- Comment on this post and let it serve as a petition.
- Tweet about this and use the hashtag #prosnotprudes.
- Digg this and let's make a statement.
"Boys will be boys," is not an attitude that professional men and women can afford to support anymore. And, Courtney, thanks for sticking your neck out. We're grateful that you're willing to share your story.
WARNING: The following contains graphic descriptions and words that some may find objectionable. It's not safe for work, children, grandparents or small animals.
Ok, so, I want to share this experience with you and get your take on it.
I have been attending only the afternoons of Flashbelt this year because I didn't want to take the full days off — and because in years past (I think I've been to at least three others) the afternoon keynote is totally mindblowingly talented and innovative and has provided me with that out-of-the-ordinary experience that temporarily removes you from your everyday routine and inspires you to be more creative. In short, I wanted to be inspired.
Yesterday's afternoon keynote is this guy named Hoss Gifford — I believe his major claim to fame is that viral "spank the monkey" thing that went around a few years back. Highlights of his talk:
- He opens his keynote with one of those "Ignite"-esque presentations — where you have 5-minutes and 20 slides to tell a story — and the first and last are a close-up of a woman's lower half, her legs spread (wearing stilettos, of course) and her shaved vagina visible through some see-thru panties that say "drink me," with Hoss's Photoshopped, upward-looking face placed below it.
- He later demos a drawing tool he has created (admittedly with someone else's code) and invites a woman to come up to try it. After she sits back down, he points out that in her doodles she's drawn a "cock."
- Then he decides he wants to give a try at using the tool to draw a "cock" (he loves this word) — and draws a face, then a giant dick (he redraws it three times) that ultimately cums all over the face.
- A multitude of references to penises and lots of swearing — and also "If you are easily offended, fuck you!"
- And then, to top it off, a self-made flash movie of an animated woman's face, positioned as if she's having sex with you, who gradually orgasms based on the speed of your mouse movement on the page.
You know, I like to think of myself as a pretty open-minded and easy-going person, but I was shocked that this was considered appropriate material for a conference about innovative developments in the world of flash and the greater creative field. And that I'd paid to see this. And that a number of people laughed at his jokes — perhaps because probably 90-95% of the people there were male. Having been a computer science major in college and a programmer for the last 9 years, I'm using to being the minority in these sort of development environments, but this was the first time I really felt like it was a boys' club. A boys' club where "girls" could hang out, but they are ultimately considered nothing more than objects of sexual gratification.
I checked Twitter (hashtag #flashbelt) to see what the responses were. Here are some notable remarks:
- Fonx is reading the #flashbelt rants on Hoss offending the ladies w/ a few swear words & a penis drawing - r u really that prudish & sexist?
- nthitz lol @hoss69 "If you are easily offended, fuck you" #flashbelt
- livenootrac Ladies of #flashbelt , I am sorry for the Hoss preso, but in the flash community he gets a pass, kinda like Don Rickles - that's just Hoss.
- CujoJpn @livenootrac And there were many ladies at #flashbelt who were offended by Hoss' Preso some were thick skinned and took it as is.
So, if you didn't like it then
a) you are a prude - and sexist (?)
b) fuck you
c) suck it because Hoss gets a pass here in the boy's club known as "the flash community" and
d) you are a wimpy girl who isn't strong enough / man enough / "thick-skinned" enough to deal with it.
Uh? Aren't we in 2009? Do we have to "deal with" shit like this still? I just did a "Mad Men" mini-marathon the other day and one of the common themes is men being total dicks to women and women crying in the bathroom because they can't speak out about it. I remember thinking "Boy, I'm glad I didn't live then." And yet you can see the backlash you get if you speak about this sort of thing, NOW.
Since yesterday I've been thinking a lot about this, the psychological and social and gender things involved, what it means, what to do about it, etc. I did immediately write to the director and creator of Flashbelt — and he apologized and said he and I were on the same page and wanted to talk to me about it more. But I also felt like I wanted to continue a conversation with other women like you, get your take on it, find out if you think I'm just being a baby and too sensitive or what. To me, this is totally unacceptable.
Courtney
P.S. I forgot to mention Hoss' subsequent tweet on the subject:
Some hated it, more loved it - girls AND boys. Apologies to those offended, but I'll take raw emotion over indifference any day. #flashbelt
P.P.S. And finally, this was my favorite tweet (from another woman in attendance):
dlicht Thanks for the Tweets on Hoss' presentation tonight...they serve as a good filter on who NOT to give my phone number to! #flashbelt
Courtney Remes is creative strategist with more than a decade's experience in the interactive world.
Before starting Arrowplane, Courtney co-founded Synthetic Kit, where she was Principal and Senior Developer for four years. Courtney also served for several years as Web & Technology Chair and Co-Vice President of the Minnesota Interactive Marketing Association (MIMA), one of the country's largest and most active IMAs.
UPDATE (6/12): Courtney Remes, Dave Schroeder, Nancy Lyons and Meghan Wilker met on Friday, June 12 and collaborated on a response to this issue. Read it here.
UPDATE (6/15): Hoss Gifford responded. Read it here.
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http://shorl.com/tojulololysti
There does seem to be a line between between what is considered funny and inappropriate when it comes to joking about women and sex. Except men don't seem to know where that line is.
I saw the movie "The Hangover" last weekend with a friend. We were the only women in the theater. There were some terribly sexist jokes, but that's to be expected; it's about a bachelor party gone wrong. But a professional conference? I think 'The Hangover' was more tasteful than that presentation, which says a lot.
I'm a dude, fellow computer scientist, and I'm offended. Adolescents like Hoss do not represent my profession.
I'm unsubscribing from the Flashbelt list... now.
Incidentally, I did go to Flash In the Can in Toronto in April, on a free pass as part of a bid to get more women involved. Hoss was not in the lineup there!
Good thing is that the conf organizer agrees with your opinion and wants to discuss. Wonder if this means he'll boot Hoss or ask him to tone it down? His actions will dictate whether I'd attend that conference again.
Oh BTW the nice thing about living in 2009 vs. MadMen years is that if men treat us like dick we can organize our own damn Flash conferences if we want to.
You can bet your ass that if ol' Hoss was drawing racist cartoons he'd be excoriated and shunned in an instant.
A nice show of regard for his peers, who paid to see something they thought would be worthwhile.
Clearly, Hoss needs to start (has started?) developing the reputation nationally that he should not be presenting. With all the talent in Mpls, I'm certain we can find professional folks who have a lot to contribute and are local to boot! I would have expected the event organizers to kick him off the stage.
Minneapolis has an excellent reputation in the digital space. We absolutely cannot let this ruin it. We will not stand for it.
The responsibility of this blatant assault against the women who were unfortunate enough to have paid good money to be subjected to this, lies squarely on the shoulders of the conference organizer and the sponsors whose duty it is to hire presenters who deliver thought provoking content that changes the minds and the behaviors of conference attendees.
I get this was supposed to be shocking, but how about you shock us with an idea we have never heard before, shock us with results on a project because you developed something new. Showing us naked women is not shocking to us. We see that every night when we get undressed. Unfortunately the conference organizers did not care enough or were not smart enough to review this presenter’s content.
After 20+ years of in business, I am so saddened to see this crap still goes on. And to all of you men who tweeted that the women who found this inappropriate, were simply thin-skinned, please, you know better. If you seriously think this wasn't that bad, take this post to any of the women in your life and let me know if they think it’s okay.
I think Hoss put Dave in a bad position.
Hey, I am all about offensive humor sometimes, but I think what Hoss did was really alienating and bad news for a profession that needs to feel more open to women etc. He reinforced stereotypes of programmers as a bunch of snot-flinging, Mt. Dew guzzling masturbators, And while there are a lot of those, it needs to not remain that way.
Having said that, I think that by making a huge deal out of this you are playing into the stereotype of a woman not being able to "take it." Complaining about the behavior is one thing, but combatting it is a more effective approach.
For example, my business partner(and wife) plays Halo on Xbox Live with me. This is a realm populated by testosterone laden twitchy 12 year old males (who have a somewhat similar personality to those of the peers you describe above). Now, as we all know internet+anonymity=douche bag. When one of these little jerks starts calling her a ho or a bitch, she cuts them off with, "I'm sorry I can't understand you through all the fat in your cheeks. Get the Twinkie out of your mouth."
Unnecessary? Sure. But by beating them at their own game, she's leveling the field and calling them out on their douchebaggery.
Kneeling down to their level and fighting back is one option. However, another, potentially stronger option is to not pay to attend the conference next year. Hitting them where it hurts (the pocketbook) sends a strong message. Especially if a large group sits out in protest.
Courtney, I applaud you for standing up to this and exposing it. Not funny.
Thanks for the perspective.
Our point with this post is not simply to "complain" about this, but to encourage people to combat it by (as we stated above) expressing their displeasure with the conference organizers and sponsors. In other words, taking their business elsewhere.
I feel like having what I consider to be a successful career in Interactive is -- in a sense -- beating them at their own game. But, in addition to that, I'm not going to lay down and take it when someone does something I find reprehensible.
I can "take" whatever gets dished out. Doesn't mean that I should have to. I choose not to.
With no intentions of starting a comment war, I am really curious as to why women should "take it"?
This just sounds like the very least professional presentation I could imagine, and would have convinced me that this man probably doesn't have much in the professional realm to teach me.
Sad that this dude has so little in his bag of professional tricks that he has to go for the "chicks love to get banged" jokes to get the laughs.
P.S. Hoss. I am not easily offended, and I sure as hell am not interested in fucking you.
Men - strike that, BOYS - like that should never be given a platform or microphone. As a keynote, we're supposed to look up to that? Emulate that? Be ispired by THAT?! Hardly. Nauseated is more like it.
Courtney, I hope you get a full refund. It's the least they can do for having you sit through that abuse.
This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
It's too bad nobody walked out. I bet a lot of people were close.
I hope I have the presence of mind to get up and leave if I ever find myself at a "fuck you" presentation.
I want to take you to task for hashtagging the discussion with #prosnotprudes. This has NOTHING to do with being prudes, at all. 'Pros, not _________' should have been filled out with an appropriate descriptor of the offenders' outré behavior, not an unnecessary, and inaccurate, defense of yours.
You know you're getting somewhere when all they can threaten you with is rape, not competition.
A similar presentation at a Ruby conference in April (mentioned above by Ben Beuchler) sparked a pretty serious backlash. I was encouraged by the unapologetic outrage expressed by many men and women developers, and by the renewed commitment to making the Ruby community more inclusive.
Is it too much to hope that something similar will come to pass in the Flash community?
Hoss Gifford is so offensive and his colleagues, er, I mean his Frat House, don't have the balls to yank him off the stage.
It's quite inappropriate for those visuals and that language in any setting, let alone a professional conference. Obvious arrested development in mind, body and spirit.
Offensive, rude and inexcusable. I hate it when men are animals.
RN
I love technology and I have been in the industry since the late 80's things have gotten better but not by much. Sure there are (more) women in technology... and some are rock stars and in my opinion would never need to use profanity, or show pictures of body parts to put their point across.
Is it a boy's club? I don't think so, it's ignorance and yes, downright chauvinist.
Not only is it unprofessional, offensive, and in bad taste, it likely is at least on the fringes of illegal and actionable. Almost more troubling is the excuse (which Eric seems to be advocating in his comment) that women who can't "take it" should get off the playing field. This is an even more insidious form of sexism.
I have worked in male-dominated industries(telecom, silicon, and complex systems) for a long time. Sure, I've seen my share of distasteful jokes, comments, and behaviors. Thankfully, I have never seen anything quite so absurdly distasteful as what you describe.
Gifford should - at least - be censured and fined, as should Flashbelt. He may also be in violation of local obscenity laws. There is no reason to put up with such vulgarity in the professional realm.
But, in all seriousness, why are the presentations and content not previewed/approved by the organizers of this event? I'm not familiar with it or its format but it seems to me that whoever sponsored this should have been a lot more aware and a lot less approving of what they were allowing in a public forum.
I'm not part of any technical community, but I am former HR manager and have a lot of experience intervening
in situations like this and training people on how things can be different. I can't add anything to what has already been said, except that in these types of situations I am always amazed that (supposedly) intelligent and creative people (e.g. presenters) cannot find ANOTHER way to present information that does not alienate a bunch of people. His approach may have been to disguise weak content, but (among so many things that are shameful...) what a shame if it had been strong content, and the value of it was lost with the provocative presentation.
Wrong on so many levels.
When I turned 40 I promised myself that I was done working with assholes and idiots. THis guy is apparently both.
I don't care if he's brilliantly gifted, a Flash savant, blah, blah, blah. He's shown himself to be a misogynistic, unprofessional infant. He didn't deserve the honor (AND RESPONSIBILITY) of being a keynote speaker. In fact, he abused it, right along with all the women in the audience.
The conference should issue refunds. And apologies.
Meghan and Jodi,
There's no comment war here, merely discussion. Perhaps I erred in using the term "take it" which some are taking in a sexual context. I mean it in the sense of rising above the challenge and overcoming. Not letting the situation get the best of you. A successful business person, man or woman, has to be able to take the challenges life throws your way and overcome them in a positive way.
I'm not familiar with this Hoss character, but my feeling is that, like a guest who brings over his dog that proceeds to poop on the floor and hump my leg, he shouldn't be invited back. If droves of people call the conference management directly to complain, then a movement begins. Why not post the contact information for the person or people responsible for the conference so we can all complain directly to them?
I think shunning is a good start. I don't care what Hoss thinks he knows. Clearly, he doesn't know how to behave in a professional manner nor is he fit to present information to other professionals.
Sounds to me like Hoss isn't the problem. Sounds to me like the problem is the people who lend him relevance.
Uh-oh! The cat's out of the bag - he can draw donks in flash! Wonder when the last time adding cum all over a client's logo with a cartoon dick won him a gig?
He might get a few laughs from the pros, but that's just because they know they're going to eat his lunch at the end of the day.
And: How come nobody just got up and walked out? That's what I most likely would have done were I there. Stood up, said "this is stupid" just loud enough to be heard by the people immediately around me, and left. I bet plenty of people would have followed.
Or was everybody just really that shocked at what was unfolding? Like... watching a train wreck and not able to pull away?
Courtney, I'm stunned by your experience and appreciate your willingness to share. One great way to combat stuff like this is to shine some light on it. Also, I've found that it's always worth looking closely when folks defend themselves by accusing others of being thin skinned.
Thanks again, Courtney, and let us know if you get your refund.
i do lectures all over the place and pointedly say they are NC-17, and oftentimes for schools or universities with a majority of women in the audience. one will find 19th century japanese erotica along with early 20th century mainstream american artifacts (tobacco cards with nekkid ladies on the back, a 1944 drawing book titled Figure Drawing For All It’s Worth, which has a woman with “Ideal proportions” - nude and wearing high heels!). our design studio had been commissioned by Chronicle Books for a project on the Suicide Girls, who position themselves to be the alterna-cheesecake of today (pretty much posturing as far as i’m concerned). i mention this because because sex and the sexes is not only part of everyday life, but there are any number of ideas and metaphors that the professional can utilize to make a point. but if the point is to shock the prudes, well, that’s not a point.
i would argue the japanese erotica i use is probably more graphic than the drawings to which are being referred. and for all i know it’s really just 19th century porn. i don’t know. but i do know the drawings mentioned sound like they done on a wall above a urinal, which seem base and crass in nature (and anyone who knows me knows i can be base and crass), and support no idea, no metaphor, nothing except what has been described. if that’s the case, this guy could have gone the way of drawing flowers or illustrating decapitation: but one is essentially innocuous and the other is loaded with any number of issues that will push any number of buttons.
this guy sounds like an immature jerk. “if you are easily offended, fuck you” claims no sense of responsibility to the audience. i’m not easily offended, but this guy is offensive. he is NOT don rickles, who is an equal-opportunity misanthrope. the fact that he spends hours creating a flash movie that bases climax speed on mouse movement is more a sad statement about him than for the audience, that had to witness his fetish in public. something tells me that if he has one of those Apple mouses with the wee button on it he doesn’t know he way around it. if you know what i mean.
how the crowd reacted or did not react should not matter too much. they probably wanted to watch the train wreck, probably nervous and appalled laughter mixed with the juvenile laughter. while some may have wanted to boo or walk out, i would not suggest their silence or lack of movement suggested tacit approval.
boys will be boys is not any reason to tolerate this stuff, and i’m pretty sure it’s not just part of what seems to be a male-dominated profession. i think it a reasonable measuring stick, when one acts, performs, lectures, in public the speaker/performer consider their words and actions ending up in places like this, in a public forum. i’ve never heard of the “viral spank the monkey guy”, and i don’t think any of are better off for having heard of him, unless it’s to remind ourselves that this issue has nothing to do with being a prude, little to do with being a professional, and a lot to do with respecting half the human population. something tells me his 15 minutes are up.
A punk like that demeans everyone in the room, makes his employer look like the kind of trash outfit no big-money operation would want to invest any of their marketing.IT/whatever money in.
Since when do creative people have to be lacking in courtesy and human decency?
However, I think it is worth noting what is being said in the #flashbelt stream, and I think this article ends by choosing select tweets to project a tone that everyone in attendance was indifferent about the content.
I do NOT want this to take away from the point that there was grossly inappropriate content of the presentation. However, I do not appreciate the sensationalist approach of using choice tweets to make your argument. This is not representative of the attendees, and if I may be so bold, not representative of the Flashbelt event as a whole. I think people who are unsubscribing from the Flashbelt list are being rash, and not giving Dave @ Flashbelt the opportunity to respond.
For the record, as a Flashbelt attendee, I do not appreciate the content of the presentation, and based on the description (and @hoss69's tweet-response), have lost any respect for Hoss Gifford he had or may have deserved.
So, Hoss is admitting that without his "illustrations," his presentation would've garnered only indifference. Heh, I think it's pretty clear how Hoss spends his free time. Not that there's anything wrong with that but keep it private, please?
I didn't see the presentation. Could it have been humorous? Possibly. Was it unprofessional? Definitely. Hoss needs a huge serving of Humble Pie.
Courtney, you're a professional.
Even scarier as my 6-year old daughter continues to grow up!
Also, some anatomical education is in order given this phrase, "...her shaved vagina..."
What can be seen and shaved is a vulva. A vagina doesn't grow hair and generally isn't seen, even going commando, without using a speculum.
I’d actually like to profile you, Courtney, on Shaping Youth (media and marketing’s impact on kids) if you’re game, because this has pertinence WAY beyond a professional context…
Sexist slop is so pervasive in pop culture these days that many GIRLS are already reacting the way WOMEN do, either ‘burying their voice’ to shrug it off so as not to call further attention to it, or launching into what I call “faux flaunting” a sort of ‘in your face’ first strike bravado to be “one of the guys” as a coping mechanism.
Objectification + Sexualization = Desensitization/body shame (APA study on kids)
The next generation of girls shouldn’t have to ‘put up’ with this Neanderthal junk, yet somehow we’re going ‘backwards’ in the wink and nod approach by enabling it.
Easy guidelines? “If it feels wrong to put your own daughter’s face in the visual, it’s probably the wrong visual to use.” (hat tip to Dads & Daughters for that one!)
Huge issue. Thanks for giving voice to it.
www.ShapingYouth.org
Using the power of media for positive change
1) because of your post I found out about flashbelt (sorry I'm waaaaay green with all this world and still getting to know the players) and when checking it, in the inbox it says:
"Be assured I take this seriously and I feel pretty lousy about it.
As for why this happened, I'm still working that out, but somewhere I dropped the ball. I apologize for that. I accept responsibility. I'll focus on avoiding similar mistakes in the future."
written by dave schroeder, so they've got the publicity and they make it up and voila, a new customer/follower/anything achieved.... do they really deserve it????
2) with a few life experiences I've come to realized that even though it's difficult and it takes a lot of patience in order to see results, its effective in the long run to ignore such stupid things, wherever they come, no buzz, no appeal nor knowledge ;)
3) You see, whatever the case may be, whenever the guy may be it so happens that a lot of time, in our minds, there are pictures of women, we just looooooooove women, some of us more than others, so, if you ever get to think about payback, it might be very interesting watching women getting organized in order to avoid even the thought of talkin' or sharing an eyesight with guys like that.
Sorry if something was mispelled, my native language is spanish ;)
Great post by the way!
Ladies and gentleman, I say, demand a refund!
Actually I have noticed many people with the tendency to be rude in the technology sphere...I think that not only is this a problem for us women, but the way people are with each other in SM/tech. In a world in which social networking and networking in general is SUPER important, should not politeness and professionalism rule the day in blog posts, comments, and, most of all, conference presentations?
While I didn't see the entire presentation myself, I understand that there were several instances that attendees found offensive. I have been told that several of his images and comments created made female attendees feel uncomfortable, and essentially objectified women. My vision for Flashbelt is an environment where every attendee feels comfortable and welcome, and everyone grows together. Gender balance and equity is important to me. I consider myself a feminist and don't hesitate to say it.
When a room that is 80% men is laughing at jokes that make women feel uncomfortable, it has an effect on the atmosphere of our community. And I don't see that as a positive effect. We need to work together. It's better for everyone.
I try very hard to make all of the attendees comfortable and welcome. I highly value my female attendees and am aware that they make up an important part of the Flashbelt audience and the design and development community. I make an intentional effort to bring female professionals to speak at the event. I understand the gender imbalance in this industry and I hope Flashbelt can serve to to bring people together and help them improve their skill sets. Over the last 6 years I believe it has done this. This single instance is a setback, but I know it is not a representation of the other 100+ speakers and sessions I've presented at Flashbelt over the last 6 years.
Be assured I take this seriously and I feel pretty lousy about it.
As for why this happened, I'm still working that out, but somewhere I dropped the ball. I apologize for that. I accept responsibility. I'll focus on avoiding similar mistakes in the future.
I have to footnote this with the fact that I've known Hoss for a few years, and I think of him as teddy bear. In person he's a warm, friendly person, and respectful. This doesn't excuse his problematic session. We have spoken and I know he is aware of the effect of his presentation.
Sincerely, - dave schroeder - Flashbelt Producer
============
Amendment:
I know Courtney Remes, who blogged about this, and have been in contact with her about this. I wanted to post one of her replies to my emails because I think it is important to the current discussion.
"Hi, Dave. Thanks for the note. I really think you've otherwise done an incredible job of gathering together some of the most brilliant and inspiring minds in Flash and beyond in this year and past years -- and I applaud that, loudly. Like I said, I've been trained to have my mind blown by the amazing talents of the people you put up there. I've been really impressed.
This Stuff shouldn't be tolerated -- unless people know what they are in for. If I had gone to a movie or performance art piece I knew was going to be racy and crude, this wouldn't be the same. It's all about context. This was not the right context for Hoss.
I have to run, so I can't write more at the moment, but I'd be open to talking more about it if you would like. I thought about approaching you yesterday, but it didn't seem like the right time or place to have this discussion. My main purpose is not to hurt Flashbelt, because I think it's a great conference (excepting Hoss) -- I just want to have this conversation in the open, because, as you said before, it is important." - Courtney
So… what's up with the Hoss presentation?
Seriously, can we not find speakers in the industry who are:
- talented
- enthusiastic
- productive
- inspirational
and not:
- self indulgent
- shock-value
- douchebags?
Please… please try harder next time.
__________________
NOTE BACK FROM FLASHBELT:
HI Tiffany,
Thanks for the email.... Read More
In short, yes it is possible to find great people and I do it 99% of the time.
I screwed this one up.
Please read my comments here:
http://www.flashbelt.com/#/news/
Best,
dave
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-––------
DAVE SCHROEDER
PILOTVIBE_com • music & sound design
FLASHBELT_com • multimedia conference
There's definitely still a long road ahead, but I think the women who will be able to make a change are definitely putting their running shoes on...
Who invited this 'known quantity' to speak? That's where the buck stops. Hoss damages whole community.
I feel so bad that you had to sit through all of this and the cavalier attitude that he took after people voiced their offense to it. This was just entirely unprofessional and not funny at all. I'll step up for spreading the word that this was NOT ok, no matter what a "Flash big shot" he is.
What happens now? Hopefully this will serve as a good reminder for this industry that all its members are sacred to its well-being and that singling out any portion of them to berate is not to be tolerated and should be considered completely unprofessional.
Sexism against women doesn't just affect women. It affects men as well. Those of us that respect all women, and look up to the professional/personal lives of some are sometimes thrown into the group of guys like this jerk.
Kudo's to Courtney and to the Geek Girls (Meghan and Nancy) for posting this and getting the discussion going.
The fight isn't over, ladies.
But, seeing the following posted gives me pause:
how the crowd reacted or did not react should not matter too much. they probably wanted to watch the train wreck, probably nervous and appalled laughter mixed with the juvenile laughter. while some may have wanted to boo or walk out, i would not suggest their silence or lack of movement suggested tacit approval.
Actually, @marc_english, our natural tendency as humans and societal people is to avoid actions seemingly different, out of step from the group and therefore eliminate or prevent causes for separation or isolation from a group. Therefore, just as people who witness a crime but do nothing to prevent or stop it, the audiences silence or lack or reaction to Hoss' presentation is by default a tacit approval.
If Hoss did say something such as "If you are easily offended, then F**K Y*U" then it is obvious he knew and recognized the offensive nature of his material, actions and the entire presentation content.
So, in the simplest terms, this is more than just inappropriate material or something offensive to mild mannered people from Minnesota. Because the speaker knew the material to be offensive and the audience, the event host, and other associated parties did nothing to prevent or end the presentation once it was seen to be offensive, this boils down to sexual harassment and appropriate legal action should be taken against Hoss, the event host, and other affiliated parties.
Simply expressing frustration in this blog might be good for the soul, but it will do nothing to right the wrongs.
-Peace
Fonx
But please don't pin this one on "men". There are plenty of us out there who would have found it distracting, entirely irrelevant and not particularly funny.
Guys, I thought we were professionals?
Frankly, this behavior comes off as pathetic. A kind of overcompensating because of a lack of confidence in ones actual abilities. Sort of like driving a fast car because one has a small penis.
I feel bad for this guy. How embarrassing.
I know the MEN I've work with. And I have great respect for them. They would never stoop so low, because they're actually good at what they do, and they know it.
Glad to see so much support for you and the other female attendees of #flashbelt by calling Hoss out. Hoping that #prosnotprudes doesn't feel this kind of behavior reflects the nature of our entire industry. While it sounds like some of your fellow attendees (male) found it absolutely acceptable, it certainly does not reflect everyone's mode of thinking.
That being said, the presentation was more than "off color humour." Much more. And it was completely inappropriate as a presentation in a professional conference. It is one thing to put up with a crappy sex joke from a colleague once and awhile, and usually effectively dealt with by a snappy comeback putting the juvenille in his place.
But to have paid to be subjected to that crap. I'd ask for a partial refund.
Conferences where this man speaks should be identified, businesses surely would not want to pay for their employees to be sexually harassed.
Should anything like this ever occur again. My promise to you is that I will stand up and bring the conversation to a screeching halt. If someone attempts to humiliate me, I assure you that they will suffer humiliation in return.
I am not amused. I would like to hear from OReilly and from Adobe, as they are both companies that (ostensibly) want business from me.
I am startled, furious and saddened that not one man had the courage to stand up and say "this is wrong". If they didn't think it was wrong than surely they are misogynists.
If you ask me, there was a room full of cowards.
Being a man I've seen these kind of weak kids lots before.
They think they're cool and funny, the rest of us think they're stupid.
Hoss, you'll be OK once you get your 'best after' date.
Baby boy!
Hmmmer. Things that make ya go, hmmm?
But one request: please, in these situations, talk to the conference organisers first _before_ posting (you may have, but this a general plea to any readers).
Sure, some conferences are run by big corporations, but many are labours of love by individuals (in this case it appears to be mainly one person). They don't have the man or woman power to do the massive amounts of organising a conference requires, AND vette every speaker's presentation. I think they could expect a certain level of professionalism from speakers too.
And if you don't give them a chance to respond first, it can end up with a kind of witch hunt, and a smearing of an otherwise great event. The wrong person gets targeted. And that can make it seem too hard, and next year there's no event. In that case, you win the battle against sexism, but lose the war.
I'm not in any way trying to apologise for what happened; it just shouldn't have. No argument there whatsoever.
But if it becomes a public complaint before the organisers even have a chance to address it, then you cut them out of being part of the solution.
I'm speaking from some personal experience. We created an animation for a Sydney conference that was a parody of a 50s ad. That lead to a post about about the conference being sexist, and this comment, and my response:
-----------------------------------------
"They opened up the conference with a cartoon depiction of a housewife beheading, exploding and poisoning her family."
This is true. It's a parody of a 50's commercial, where some SuperProduct makes life easier for a housewife. Our take was that her real problem wasn't the mess caused by her family, but more their complete lack of respect for her, so anything that really solves her problems involved bumping off those thoughtless jerks. Our tongues were firmly in our cheeks: we weren't saying 'all women are blood-crazed housewives' any more than we were truly stating at the end that Celine Dion is worse than global warming (although have you heard the "You Shook Me All Night Long" cover?)
It's the same with the other animations: a kid smoking five FlashLite ciggies at once won't make him 80% faster, stronger and cooler; FlashOs cereal doesn't actually come with a free boombox; and Flex won't transform you into a musclebound hunk of homoerotic hotness (sorry guys).
-----------------------------------------
I did preface that with an apology, because regardless of our intent, people don't need to feel uncomfortable.
However, by posting publicly first, it turned into a whole "I wasn't there, but the conference is sexist!" trolling affair, in which the organisers (including at 3 women) were left scrambling to deal with.
Thus did it descend to this kind of level:
--------
"It was the 2-3 "toasting" instances in the cartoon that seemed to focus on the mommy character's breasts."
Um, there was only one instance. And yes, as the jump-cut in to the closeup of the toast had the woman in the wide shot, she was also in the background of the close up.
In our defence, she was a woman, so she did have breasts. And they were fully covered. And of somewhat average, non-inflated size. Oh, and she's a 2D-rendered cartoon woman...
"It appeared to be twice to me, I'm not sure why, and I don't care. The fact is, you weren't careful. Period."
------
Does anyone think that sort of exchange really helps progress gender politics?
Anyway, that's a longer plea than I intended. I'm just asking to give small conferences a chance to address things constructively, before they get strung up in public or tarred by association. Sexist crap needs to cease; let's work towards that in the best way possible.
Cheers,
Minty
I don't consider myself a prude. I have many military friends that crack obscene jokes. I listen to bawdy music and stand up comedy. As someone else says, there is a line. And cracking obscene jokes in a supposedly professional atmosphere is definitely over the line.
I agree with you for the most part. Publishing these things to social networks is a very double edge sword with a nasty back-swing.
There is a lot of vigilantism emerging out there. You can see it most clearly in people who are doubting Dave's sincerity. It is clear that Dave could open his veins on their door step and they would find a way to construe it as a furtherance of all that is wrong.
I am sure Flashbelt has the contact info of everyone in attendance, it would have been worth the effort for Dave to personally contact everyone and be accountable, and it would have been very doable, and would have been an opportunity to strengthen his commitment to creating an inclusive atmosphere, which everybody locally pretty much knows anyway. But this is the problem, online social networks are not local. So situations like this become fodder for people to hijack real social discourse and turn it into a.m. talk-radio- level Gang-of0Four type vigilantism. An excuse to use legitimate moral issues as a means to exorcise ancient wounds.
And you are right, that does not move gender discourse forward. The consequences of this could be counter productive. For those of us who know Dave, we know his heart is with inclusiveness. If it wasn't, he would not have the partner he does. So what happens if Dave loses sponsorship because of all the vigilantism? A really decent human being, who is totally willing to address the consequences of an error in judgement, would be no longer able to help contribute to an inclusive interactive community. A person cannot apply their "lesson-learned" if they lose the venue in which to apply the wisdom gained from experience. In the final analysis, there would be a sum-total loss in nurturing positive community. This is why I have been very active on Twitter trying to separate Flashbelt from Hoss, he has done a lot of damage. I am concerned that what is happening in the Twittersphere is only extending that damage.
HOWEVER, I do feel bad for Hoss on this one, I met him at Flash on Tap (a conference that happened in Boston 1 week before Flashbelt) and attended this very same session. I had a chance to have a good conversation with Hoss and feel he's a genuinely awesome guy.
When I saw this presentation I knew what kind of person Hoss was, a loud Scotsman with a (in my opinion) really funny and purposefully naive outlook on sexuality - the "orgazmatron", penis jokes and cum animation was all there to provoke you, like South Park would. It's a type of comedy that even if you don't agree with it, its there for entertainment.
I'm sure you could rationalize whatever I just said to justify this holy war against Hoss but I don't know what positive things would come out of this.
The Flash community is diverse and I wouldnt like it if everyone was like Hoss, or if everyone was like an Adobe Evangelist, or if everyone was nerdy.
I always felt the Flash community is more laid back and I feel that the females who do attend enjoy being part of it - also I can say that the presentation of Hoss that I watched was well received, even from the girls.
Please go easy on Hoss, is all I'm saying.
I also agree with what one of the commentators said, if you had a problem with the session it would have been more effective to have stood up there and shouted FAIL.
As I see it this blog post is being fueled by justifications from people who didn't see it (which are totally sound and correct and I agree with them) and if I didn't see it and read your post I would most likely have been offended too!
The Flash community is small, I feel this is really going to be a big hit on Hoss (and really unnecessary) :(
I think this is a flawed perspective. This is not a gender issue.
No one in business should be subjected to such obscenities. If gender roles were switched in this scenario, the content is still not acceptable for a public event.
I'm not even sure a disclaimer is helpful or appropriate for this situation. This was a professional presentation for a general design audience, not for designers in the Adult Industry. Contextual awareness is so important.
@ Minty Hunter
As Courtney indicates in her post, she did contact Flashbelt organizers first.
To that end, I think Courtney has done a very good job of outlining the facts around this issue. She's not attacking a specific individual or damning the conference or design community.
@others
I think "demanding a discount" is a reactive response whether the conference is run by a large corporation or a single individual. A mistake was made, Flashbelt is acknowledging the error.
I no longer work in digital advertising but reading this post took me back to my last job where there was such a 'boys club', inappropiate pictures involving members of staff posted on the walls, lewd comments and of course you're a prude if you say something. And to top it all off...my leaving present? a porn DVD!!?! and I later find out they'd made the female intern traipse round the soho sex shops to buy it
The guys in attendance laughed at it? *rolls eyes*.
I think if they are going to have this kind of people there, the organizers should be the one paying the attendees. Because I'm pretty sure "bulls**t" wasn't on the agenda, or people wouldn't have signed up.
There's a time and a place for everything, and that wasn't it. Though to be fair, I don't think there is an appropriate time for that after the age of 16.
Every time I've watched other men (I are one) throw this kind of porn/locker room stuff into inappropriate contexts, they have also been the kind of person where if they were presented with an equivalent male homosexual reference-laden presentation, they would themselves be offended.
That's a pretty good clue that it's wrong.
I also find it telling that many of the responses mention offending *women* specifically. This is the kind of thing that is inappropriate no matter the gender of the presenter or the gender/orientation of the depicted.
As a woman who served in the post Tailhook military, I consider myself a "big girl", mature and plenty thick skinned. I don't think the problem here is so much the pornographic doodles and Hoss' obvious preoccupation with sex, but that he is forcing this on other people. If I don't like your pornographic doodles and offensive language, I'm a prude? Really? It couldn't possibly be that I feel this is crude, juvenille humor, totally inappropriate for a professional workplace? Sex doesn't belong at work, unless your work is sex. Being intelligent doesn't give you the right to be a jerk. They used to give "passes" to bigots too.
Respect me as a person and a business equal and I will give you the same. Until then, Hoss is just an overgrown frat boy, trying to get a peek in the girls locker room.
I don’t care if Hoss’ “accepted” in the “boys club” or that the majority of the audience was male – none of that makes what he did right or justifies it.
If being considered a “prude” means that I have self-respect and don’t appreciate the objectification of my gender in the workplace, then by all means, call me a “prude.” I’ll welcome it.
Since when are pornographically alluded presentations acceptable in the business world at an education conference, where a) no prior warning is given and b) you are paying for it. I’d like to know.
In my opinion, while the entire presentation seems highly disgusting and meant for the lower-crust, gutter-minded and alike – at the end of the day, I do believe Mr. Hoss was trying to get a rise and gain some publicity.
Thoughts of, “how can I get free press for myself?” – spring to my mind (from public relations stand point) making him seem like one of those “all about me” types.
No attractive.
And that’s just … sad.
If the only way someone believes they can get attention is to communicate lewd images and objectify women, then I just feel sorry that they feel that they need to do that.
Seems to me it’s his way of communicating self-importance and the “I am king” philosophy some men subscribe too thinking we all still live in the land of the “Clan of the Cave Bear.”
I often wonder if people like that remember that they have a mother - who brought them into this world, a grandmother – to whom their lineage was formed, a sister – of which will marry, hopefully not a man like himself etc. etc. etc.
Well, thank you for posting this. Definitely sheds some light on the “progress” that has supposedly been sweeping our world since the Sexual Revolution.
Best wishes,
Sasha
(@SashaHalima)
We're professionals, right? Why can't we all behave like professionals? Would Hoss have made that presentation to high-profile clients, male or female? I always believe you should treat your colleagues as someone who might hire you one day.
I like it when people have a little personality, but sex cartoons aren't personality, they're a time capsule to Junior High.
Ever since I was a small child I have struggled with gender inequality, wondering why I wasn't allowed to do something (or disregarded) just b/c I wasn't a boy. To see something like this happening as an adult is completely heartbreaking.
Thanks to the wonderful medium of social networking, we can speak out & make our voices heard on a large scale. Word of this is spreading like wildfire on Twitter, and I would be seriously surprised if Hoss can ever find a mainstream speaking position again.
Thanks to the women who have the balls to stand up against degradation and prove that we have talents to offer the world that have nothing to do with our genitals.
ADOBE should be held responsible for this...wake up Adobe!
The kind of shock tactic behaviour described above smacks of the kind of thing someone emotionally under developed would to in order to attract the kind of attention they could never earn on merit.
But of course, I could be wildly wrong.
Personally, I don't offend easily and neither do most of my friends and close acquaintances. But I've never seen that as an excuse to be rude.
on a regular basis. I've never considered this type
material appropriate particularly for this kind of setting.
Aside from the obvious sexism, it is wholly unprofessional
and would call into question the credibility of the whole
organisation not to mention the presenter. In my opinion,
a presentation such as this is asking for a sexual harassment
complaint.
I can understand a swear word or two because we all understand those and they can make a point, but come on. A real guy with full man card rights. Shut it guys if you think this Hoss is right on you need stop and think what if this was presented to my sister, mom, daughter, grandma? Really stop and think do you still think it is appropriate? If so you dont get it and probably never will and these are the things we teach our young professional is acceptable hey....we wonder why stuff goes bad.....
Thanks Courtney for your fearless courage! You are a true role model to young female professionals! We need more people like you, nancy and meghan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBydG0w2sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TunHciZxXaY&feature=related
(From "Flash on the Beach 2006"
But at a professional conference where the seminars/presentations are purportedly about the work these guys are doing? Like someone said below - what if this was a different profession? Would a romp like this be accepted as a legitimate work sample at a engineering conference, an interior decorator's seminar, or a financial meeting? Because of its complete irrelevance, no.
So why does anyone defend it here?
It's not prudish to call it out, it's correct. It's disturbing to me that it's even necessary.
Don't rope all of us guys into this though, all of the male developers I know would NEVER stand for that.
As I mentioned on twitter, would the audience have been as happy if the pictures had been of mostly/fully naked men in provocative poses?
The presenter may have gotten to express his "raw emotion", but he'd never do so working for me, nor I suspect many companies.
Needing that kind of language and imagery to make your presentation memorable doesn't speak highly of the content.
Pass.
---------------
The Hoss presentation was certainly offensive, and the damage it is causing in the public eye is truly unfortunate.
One example of this damage is reflected in your wording "the boys club that is the Flash community".
It is a great shame that this unfortunate event is now leading to stereotyping of an entire "community".
Also tragic, is that this is doing great damage to the perception of Flashbelt, which is one of the truly magical events in the world of interactive.
I have been involved in Flashbelt for many years, and I can attest to the fact that this presenter is NOT characteristic in tone, skill or consciousness, of Flashbelt speakers, or of the Flashbelt community.
I know the Flashbelt leadership well and I know that they are really torn up over this. Their intentions are to create an inclusive community, and Flashbelt has been a key player in realizing an ever more diverse environment, as the crowd does over time become less dominated by white males. If this incident seriously damages Flashbelt, that will be a tremendous loss.
I completely agree that Hoss was out of line, and that his presentation was alienating, and that this issues must be discussed. But I am afraid that the back swing on this double edge sword may be in the end counter productive, as if it loses Flashbelt its vital sponsorship, then one of the (otherwise) more high-consciousness events would disappear. In such a case, we will have actually on the whole moved backwards, because a key venue for the diverse and inclusive Flash community will have been lost.
Hoss exploits this shared narrative in his work to great effect, and will use his inaugural Flashbelt presentation to analyze a series of projects that build on each other's successes and failures to deliver increasingly rich experiences. And he'll say ` F**k ' a lot.
There's edgy and then there is just darn stupid...clearly "Hoss" should saddle up and head out of town maybe to San Fernando where they know from porn...
Surprise or shock is part of a good presentation. Poor choice is not. Tolerating this is not thick-skinned ... it is thick-headed. The debasement of any human - no matter gender or ethnicity or sexual preference - must never get a "pass".
If you aren't part of the solution, then you ARE part of the problem.
Thanks for coming forward, and being part of the solution!!!
It's stupid crap like this that gives all developers in the technology community a bad rap. We get labeled as egomaniacs, problems working with others, have god complexes, spoiled brats, etc because of these types of antics.
It's time that the real professionals, organizers and sponsors step up and start blackballing any punk that pulls these types of stunts!
I'll be reposting this. Thanks!
<br /><br />
So while I agree it was pretty tasteless I wouldn’t so much call it out as being anything more than demoing technology for a niche crowd. Coming from an office that is really a 50/50 mix of women and men developers I don’t see the plight that many are championing here, but my statements above are just my opinion. In short, rate the subject matter covered, much like movies from G to MA, and let that be the end of it.
Sexist antics like those you describe just don't feel like the kinds of things grown ups do. I would have felt almost the same if he started farting or talking about 90210 or something, like I was being forced to hang around with a bunch of 12-year olds. So yeah, it's not professional.
"I ever hear you've dis-respected a woman and I'll dis-invent you." -- Dad
I pity Hoss and all like him. I truly do.
Yes he is out of order, but he's been doing this for at least 8 years now by my reckoning, so why the sudden uproar? If you know Flash history, you know Hoss, and know what you're gonna get when he speaks. The old-guard Flash community has grown up with him. We know what we're gonna get. We're beyond shockable by it, and frankly bored by it. I believe it is a show meant to offend, and evidently still does for those that aren't 'in the know'. And like the showman, off the stage, he's a different guy. I don't like his act. I like the guy.
He is one of the most talented Flash developers around, yet his many sweary, misogynist, and oft-repeated conference sessions are *usually* little more than public fashturbation. Not big. Not clever. Never have been acceptable.
What's sad is that many in the profession deserve the utmost respect, but because of obnoxious people like this guy, they will be lumped in the stereotype.
Thanks for having the courage to say something - it should be brought to attention.
The good news is, there are more competent trainers out there who are more well-known for their skills and do not have to resort to such tactics in order to retain some kind of buzz or reputation as an authority on their training subject. Their skills do the work instead.
There are also more events out there like PPA, HOW and Photoshop World where the organizers take their ~entire~ audience into consideration.
# In the United States, 1.3 women are raped every minute. That results in 78 rapes each hour, 1872 rapes each day, 56160 rapes each month and 683,280 rapes each year.
# 1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.
Tell me again why this is not an offensive presentation, why I am a prude, and why we, as women, should tolerate this kind of behavior.
I appreciate the creativity and the arguable daring nature of the stuff, but at the same time, there's a clear misunderstanding of the audience. I'm convinced there's edgy people out there who are just as competent AND also get their audience.
Enough.
I can see no way that this presentation could have been designed and thought of as appropriate to a general audience.
Woman. Flasher. Was there. Knows Hoss.
Please can we call off the mob now—it's doing none of us any good imho.
These are daily experiences for many in the work place. The male dominated tech area does tend to turn a blind eye. Dave Schroeder's attempt at an apology comes off as rather lame, to me.
Good to see people speaking up. Maybe, over time, some will understand that the single most important aspect of communication - for them - is to know what *not* to say and do.
That still doesn't cover why Hoss felt this was appropriate behaviour. It is clear to me that he thought this was perfectly OK to do. That's a cultural issue that is still so entrenched that we may never see a change.
I think it's debatable only HOW offensive his jokes were, not whether they were offensive. In any case, if that's "just Hoss," I can't believe he ever gets hired. Dirty cheap humor, to me, means that the person using it is incapable of anything more intelligent and humorous too - especially when presenting at a conference like that. I think it's a huge gamble for the powers that be to even have him as a presenter, ever, if that is what you can expect when you bring him on.
The part that is truly infuriating is how he handled it afterward. When you're so clearly out of line, you apologize. You don't glamorize people's outrage as saying you hit a nerve. Hitting THAT nerve doesn't take skill or creativity, in fact it comes from those who are the opposite of skillful and creative. Anyone can draw a picture of a "cock." Do something more impressive when people are paying to see you.
I also cannot believe that someone did not get up their seat and punch the lights out of this moron! These people should be banned from all the conferences.
I do believe there is a line between material that someone as a mature adult should be able to accept without offense. I do not believe Matt Aimonetti crossed that line. But this did. I will not be attending any future presentations by Hoss Gifford.
Interviewers on CNBC, who reverently genuflect in the presence of fund managers (who are usually correct exactly 50% of the time) used the opportunity of an interview with Barney Frank to pummel him with their personal theories and rants. Regardless of how you feel about Barney Frank, the point was to get his ideas. Somehow, that was lost.
So, in the case of Hoss Gifford, I feel that one of two very professional responses were called for:
1. The always-appropriate pie-in-the-face.
2. A pants-ing. Isn't that what he's asking for? (and fears the most!)
An after-the-fact response escapes me this moment, but it's pretty sure that I won't be attending any future developer conferences without my trusty pie-tin and some Barbasol.
I was surprised -- despite the rather high percentage of "social networkers" aka "hip, technology geeks" who lack *ahem* social skills -- that Hoss Gifford made such an insulting and unprofessional presentation.
And the reaction of some/many audience members who basically backed up the stupid thin-skin/this-is-ok position is even worse, as it reflects a society where fools are not called out and shunned for their ignorance.
Let's have a little perspective, shall we?
Hoss is just one jerk, and to be charitable, he may actually learn, repent and be better in the future. Judging any person as not redeemable is generally not a good idea if one is to remain human and humane oneself. But this kind of stuff is far too common. Those who appeared to have stated that this was the most offensive thing they'd ever heard must be living sheltered lives. Likewise with those who think this mostly a problem among male-dominated technology industries. Try being a used car saleswoman or warehouse worker sometime. Sexual harassment of all sorts is even more common in some industries than technology or advertising or most any other named here. And that's the real problem.
One of the right things that should have happened is for dozens of people to walk out of the presentation in visible disgust. That's the kind of society we want to achieve. Some individuals are always going to be offensive and ignorant, and others are going to make offensive and ignorant mistakes on their way to learning. But the majority needs to behave in a way to provide the social pressure to change or be ostracized, whether in a professional conference or somewhere else. I think this is sort of what Amy Jussel touched on her in comments.
Yet another shocking aspect of this is Kirsten's comment in #7 that this presentation has been given before.
I've heard a lot of other women say things similar to Gabriella in #35 that garbage like this keeps them away from conferences -- or drives them away from the industry.
jon
I'm disheartened by how many participants are telling those who took offense to just suck it up. Who hires these knuckleheads? How did they avoid sexual harassment training all this time? Companies should really start considering these types liabilities, not assets.
As far as conferences go, a couple of strategies:
1) Tell the presenter you'll all leave the room to let him finish masturbating, then return when he's ready to present. Shouldn't be much of a delay.
2) Get conference organizers to specify which profession they mean with the term "professional." Maybe we've just made the wrong assumptions about the intended audience for these presentations.
What I didn't see addressed, unless I skimmed too quickly, is whether any men or women got up and walked out, shouted him down, cussed him out in the middle of his presentation, or in any other way took action at the time. Standup comedians are used to hecklers, but wonder if he is. I would, I'm sure, taken some sort of action at the time.
Did anybody do so?
IMO, presentations like the one described here (I did not attend) sound like the product of a man who has no professionalism, wit or comedic intelligence (or ability to follow social cues, regardless of personal preference/belief).
I feel that if a woman presented a Flash game where you dodge ejaculate from an orgasming male, it would've been looked at quite. I guess this guy has plenty of social media buzz now though, ain't it grand?
In the trite words of mid-90's women: You go girls.
I hear "sit down and shut up" which is precisely what male chauvinist pigs want smart professional women to do.
My high praise goes to all the women who have spoken up. Keep talking about the sexism and react loudly and clearly regarding conferences that humiliate and degrade you - go to ones that promise supportive and encouraging treatment for all professionals, not just the males. Use your $$ to force the issue.
The presenter is not one individual with some serious issues. The other audience members participating and responding and the follow up comments about Courtney needing to have thicker skin demonstrate that there is a whole culture of disrespect at work here.
I am disturbed by this culture of "boys just being boys." It takes us backward to the stone ages.
Where are the men? The real men? The mentors? We don't need boys being just boys, we need young leaders-in-training.
Every time a woman is disrespected, left out of the conversation, treated like a second class citizen, seen only as body and not as a complete human being (mind, heart, body, soul), we are all made less.
I think we should all be having a larger conversation about the importance of dignified and ethical behavior for men and women in an environment that is predominantly male, isolationist, objectifying, and many times juvenile in some of the worst ways.
Rahim
As one commentator pointed out, there are laws governing sexual harassment, and the companies that tolerate it happening and continuing are themselves liable. It's also a common excuse, by sexual harassment perpetrators and their apologists, that "oh, that was just me being me, and if you're offended, gee, that really says a lot about you." Don't stand for it. This incident should frankly be a career-ender for the presenter, and grounds for dismissal/resignation for conference organizers.
There needs to be a ZERO TOLERANCE attitude towards sexual harassment in business. I'd rather have an excess of concern about political correctness than the negative repercussions that ripple out of an offensive incident like this one.
Like the peep booths in the Frankfurt airport or the Red Light district in Amsterdam or a stripper with a "special act" in one of our local strip clubs (where they take it ALL off here and have girl-on-girl "action"). My husband is by no means a prude (nor am I but I'm probably more "conservative" about this stuff) and he doesn't really care for the strip shows (bOring). The other viewing items are more out of curiosity. He read this and thinks the guy’s way out of line. I’m the one moved to write about it.
What's one person's porn is another’s normal viewing pleasure. I'm not defending this guy nor what he did. He just did it in the wrong place, wrong time. I am one of those fairly think-skinned women (I have no prob talking any sex topics with any of our male/female friends or sitting in the strip club).
He's very possibly not getting enough attention. I’ve seen a pic of him. What’s the big deal? So, here we all are commenting on him. Is this the right thing to do? Or should we just stop discussing him period? He won’t go away tho. Like a bad smell.
Either way, a guy like this isn't going any where any time soon. But one of these days he's going to take his traveling porn show to the wrong place and some woman is going to sue him for sexual harassment because that was NOT what she expected to see. And she's probably right in doing so. Or maybe there'll be a class-action suit. Or he’ll perform it in the wrong city or state and face charges that way.
That might not shut him up but it will f#@k with his precious ego. Does he think he's the Howard Stern of new media / programmers? Will future shows have to be marketed as NC17 and a waiver at the door so each person knows exactly what they're getting themselves into? Hmmmm.
Be creative. Have an open mind. Look for inspiration and be inspirational. But for all that is good and precious in our world, use your brain. The old expression “discretion is the better part of valour” should be applied to a persons’ life and especially, public presentations. Maybe Hoss is unfamiliar with that phrase or the words ‘discretion’ and ‘valour’. Could someone please get that guy a dictionary. And a moral filter while they’re at it.
At the very least the presentation's description should mention that it will involve sexual and adult content, which doesn't excuse the argueably degrading to women content he used.
I am not a flash developer. I am male. But I heard about this through a friend and for what little weight it may offer, I wanted to post to add my support that what Hoss Gifford did was wrong and inappropriate.
Even as a guy, I find this type of behavior completely out of place, disrespectful, and downright WRONG.
So sad that some people out there have never learned how to be "professional" or even just be a little sensitive to others who might be around you.
Hey, I'm a dude, and I would probably have walked out on the presentation. It isn't a sex thing, it's a taste thing.
I went to Mr. Gifford's site to see what he's about, but there wasn't really much content there. No portfolio or work, so I am still sort of in the dark about who he is.
I did find this, though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBydG0w2sk
Him using this orgasmatron you described at FOTB... in 2006. So he has been using it for at least three years, and, to me, it doesn't even look very good.
Oh well.
My advice would be to just forget it and move on... getting up in arms about something like this is just what the person was hoping would happen (everyone get shocked and offended, he gets attention, etc.). Life's too short.
I'm sure that porn funds a lot of technology. That sort of application is not new, is not particularly clever or insightful, and is certainly not inspirational.
It's the worst kind of sensationalism substituting for content.
Then I would have been looking for all of my money back for the entire conference.
...anyway, I found this comment (#190, made by one "Tim") particularly amusing to me (and yes, there was a comment #182 made above attributed to the juvenile nom de plume):
<blockquote>@mike litoris: If your resume ever comes across my desk, it's going in the trash. I'll do my best to remember your name.</blockquote>
...ironic ignorance, or intentional parody? I'm hoping the former (because it's funnier).
What I just read was disgusting and uncalled for. Unprofessional, immature, bad taste...the list goes on and on, not sure how someone would think this is an acceptable presentation nor how a conference would allow this.
What you experienced was not something anyone should have had to deal with.
It's been my experience over the years that when things like this happen, and they do in large and small ways, there's a very vocal and rather hateful set of men who set out to put the women in their place.
What we need is for the majority of decent men to speak out when this sort of thing happens. Please?
The problem with these things is that group dynamics and "social proof" kick in, nobody knows what to do and thus everybody looks around and sees others not doing anything so they stay put. If however some people were to walk (men and women) then many more would leave also. So if you ever encounter a situation like this, do be active and vocal "I'm leaving now, this is not a keynote" (don't heckle/argue, just state and leave) on the spot. Walking out on a talk is a very clear message in a group.
Hmmm... ya think that might have been the clue Dave needed? Or the fact that he'd done it at other conferences too? Weirdo's will be weirdo's - the business professionals are suppose to keep them out.
I'm a proud member of the National Association of Photoshop Professionals (NAPP), and one of the first things I thought was that the NAPP guys wouldn't pull a stunt like that.
It's bad enough that the women in the audience had to endure it, but where were the men in that audience? Not the males, which apparently there were plenty of, but the men? I wish they would have gotten up and walked out. Maybe that would have gotten through to the jerk that all men aren't amused by this kind of behavior.
Upon reading this post and the original article, I was very much appalled. However, I can't say that Hoss's bit is completely irrelevant. In poor taste, ABSOLUTELY. But it certainly does represent a market segment. As designers and developers, we work to execute the goals of defined market segments. As individuals, we choose which market segments apply to us and filter the content we view accordingly.
The history of media platforms coincides with the history of sexism, civil rights, equality, feminism, etc. While we as a society are still sorting out these issues, so are our media platforms. The internet is the newest form and distributor of media, and also the largest anyone has ever seen. Therefor, we have millions of sites tailored to millions of different niche markets, globally. This presentation undeniably represents a large one of those markets: pornography. While the content of the presentation was base, to say the very least, I can't deny that it is nonetheless valid in the grand spectrum of the web, which was born out of the 90's - still a hugely sexist time - where it was accepted on a grand scale that technology was a "guy thing."
It doesn't surprise me (now, although it did at the time I graduated college), that the most knowledgeable and experienced male designers and developers may have this mentality. I recall the <a href="http://www.designobserver.com/archives/entry.html?id=20303">Milton Glaser made a controversial remark</a> regarding why there weren't as many superstar women designers as men. In this case, the very essence of the remark caused a massive explosion of comments and replies to posts. The truth of the matter was that it was not a lack of women in the field, but a perceived (or imagined?) lack of respect or public recognition.
While the senior-level individuals in the industry may have this mentality and affectively influence younger generations, the young women know it's bullshit. We no longer feel that the gender struggles of our mothers (mine is a baby boomer) apply to us, or rather, have to apply to us. This is very important, because we will teach our children or our young students not to perpetuate myths.
But back to the presentation. Again, I believe it was in poor taste and its contents were totally base, tactless, and not terribly innovative. It's not something I would have been OK with having paid to see. But the larger question in my mind is about sensorship. I believe it would have been nice, even necessary, to have sensored Hoss's presentation at the conference. Perhaps he would have been better suited to speak at a conference of web developers for the porn industry (as subtlety is certainly not his thing). However, his aesthetic and moral preferences do have a place on the giant internet, which should never be sensored. Sensoring factions of the web would would go against it's very principles as the global information network.
It's so disheartening that these sex-starved juvenile developers are tagged to speak at conferences. But I suppose it sets them apart...you know which ones to never bother with.
@Hoss69, is Scottish and from Scotland.
@Fonx is Spanish and from Spain.
Hoss started the fire and Fonx threw gasoline on it... this is what really pissed people off (this combination of their actions and comments on #flashbelt)
These two are not American white males, they both come from different cultures where this behavior is more prevalent/acceptable?
So don't make this all about flashbelt or American white males or the tech industry, its deeper then than that and this episode was mostly perpetuated by outsider not socially calibrated to our society.
Does that excuse them? Absolutely not...
They deserve everything they get!!!
One thought: I'm a guy, but I don't like immature jokes either. I know you didn't mean it, but please be careful when you say things like "And that a number of people laughed at his jokes — perhaps because probably 90-95% of the people there were male." Not all males are like that. It's not that *girls* were offended, you see. *People* were offended from both genders.
While it was happening I felt at first surprised, then disgusted, and eventually embarrassed for the worst my gender has to offer. My thoughts immediately went the women in the room, I left the room quickly when it became clear that there was no punchline, just a sophomoric phallus obsession from a charismatic asshole.
In defense of the organizers - I think they were expecting something edgy (I've heard the word 'Fuck' at many conferences), but I don't think they expected Hoss to mix Vicodin and Heineken on stage, and to then begin drawing pictures of penises spraying female faces. And who could have?
By the time he went over the edge, it was too late - so there wasn't much you that could have been done.
If taking down Flashbelt due to this is your goal, well - you'll simply be taking down a hard working guy who is doing his best to provide for his family and grow the digital creative community here in Mpls, a guy who has sought out female speakers from the onset, and doesn't have a chauvinistic bone in his body.
He gave huge discounts to the unemployed this year, and gave many free tickets to students - this is a guy with his heart and mind in the right place. He was blindsided, and maybe a bit naive.
Clearly this is self-destructive behavior from an emotionally stunted person with a substance abuse problem. I doubt Hoss will be speaking anywhere in the near future.
If you want to go after Hoss, well - he probably deserves it.
And please, lets talk about people who behave like this as individuals, and not make broad generalizations about them based on race, gender, and vocation. And don't assume that because I didn't leave the room sooner that I condoned Hoss's behaviour. None of women around me got up and left either, we were all equally stunned.
BTW - sexual harassment is a two way street in the agency of today, only men aren't as likely to report it - for a variety of reasons. It exists, and it ain't pretty either.
The real world example of changing the channel.
After 10 years of working in the interactive & design industry I too have been a witness to the boys club mentality. So big applause to the women & men speaking out. It needs to stop.
This is just insulting those who want to be insulted.
If someone behaves unprofessional it is HIS OWN PROBLEM, not yours... unless you're his customer... following that logic it looks like Hoss got a lot of new customers :-)
I know sometime local flex group (community base) has minor ownership problems but something like this make no sense...can someone finish such suckers like slice bread..
http://www.blogher.com/tipping-point-women-tech-heres-hoping
I support your decision to speak out and I applaud Dave Schroeder for working with you to resolve these points.
There's no reason anyone should feel uncomfortable at a Flash conference, especially when the source is the very people presenting.
I've also heard complaints about this from a few other conferences. I hope people take heed of this incident and learn from it. There are many people, and not all of them women, who do not believe conferences are the appropriate time or place for this type of material!
Yet here we are, in the reverse situation, women feel "objectified."
Watch some gay porn sometime and stop denying the reality of male sexuality. Gay men treat men the same way they treat women in the porn videos. The only difference is that in the gay porn the "bottom" doesn't see himself as a victim.
You are prudish regardless of whether or not you've ruled that out as a reality.
There is a great resource, "HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux ", to help guys understand what things can invite or alienate women. It was created by Valerie Aurora (yes, she's my hero and I wrote about her for Ada Byron Lovelace day). Not only is she an uber Linux kernal coder but she has put in a lot of time educating both men and women about the obstacles us geek girls face with the "good old boys" club...intentional or not.
http://valerieaurora.org/howto.html
Some of my favorite parts:
Why are there so few women in Linux?
Women are discouraged from an early age
Lack of female role models
Games, classes aimed towards men
Advertising, media say computers are for men
Don't tell sexist jokes
Do protest sexist jokes
Don't call people bitches
Don't stare and point when women arrive
Do treat new arrivals politely
Don't treat women stereotypically
Don't invite only male speakers
Do make meetings easy to attend
Don't make new people feel unwelcome
Do help new people get involved
Don't underestimate girlfriends or wives
Do treat girlfriends and wives as independent people
With that said, Hoss obvious has issues and he's expressed them in a Freudian way. Sounds like the event organizers are addressing the issue...but are they really or just doing damage control? Hopefully they will spend some time reading Valerie's amazing documents and have some open discussion in their organization.
Real balls would have been interrupting Hoss and asking him to step off stage.
What tired, pathetic thinking! He speaks as if the only two options are apathy and offensiveness. I suppose the idea of creative, productive, NON-misogynist experience was just too much for him to take!
as a male flash developer who is within the "community" all i can say is that i whole heartedly hope that you are not totally put off by everyone in this male dominated scene...
many of us do welcome a female opinion and i strongly value a ladies input...
i constantly ask for my girlfriends opinion on all of my projects...
i have attended one of the "hoss" sessions (well over a year ago) and was not offended even though the he was fairly crude... i am not offended easily i guess...
i just wanted to say that some of us are listening and do have the upmost respect for you...
I did not attend the conference, but I can tell you right now I would have put on one of those uncomfortably fake smiles all the while thinking in my head… “Is this guy crazy?!?”. Mainly because I am sitting next to 500 strangers and not my friends and close co-workers. Imagine your own work presentation that many of us give after attending these conferences. Do you really think you would bring up the orgasm simulator or 3 foot vagina as an example? Probably not.
So, I have to side with what Grant Skinner said on his blog about this... “context matters”. I believe THIS to be the most important issue of this discussion. In Amsterdam, a photo of a woman’s crotch out in front of a restaurant might be acceptable there, but back here in the good ol’ US of A, it would be set aflame and aired on Nancy Grace in minutes. I agree that the presentation was sexist, because as someone else on the internets explained, there should have been a male orgasm simulator shown right afterward, which would have most definitely received a much bigger laugh, and probably would have defused any misogyny or sexist content claims heard throughout the Flash Community. If you are going to be explicit and crude, make sure you disrespect and offend everyone equally.
So again, context matters… and one (wo)man’s trash is another (wo)man’s treasure.
rp
As a black man, I compare this to a presenter using photos of a lynching or maybe a little sambo or watermelon humor to make his point. It is unneccessarily hostile to members of the audience.
Any conference organizer who hires Hoss Gifford in the future has either not done their due diligence about this guy, or is comfortable with outright hostility directed toward women in the audience. In either case, they will not get one red cent of my conference budget.
If I was there, I would have been as upset as any woman present. Exactly where the heck are all the real men, who don't accept this kind of behaviour or this puerile kind of enfant-terrible as MANLY? HELLO? DAVE? All I can say is Dave's apology and Hoss' explanations are pure refuse.
MAN UP, admit it was completely awful, and irredeemable pathetic.
Warren
For what it's worth, not all men are so childish, and quite a few of us would be pretty uncomfortable in this situation too.
Hard to get an innocent verdict when a croud of people see you rush the stage and throw a podium onto the 'cock' of a dude you just decked in the face and elbowed in the throat...
Once upon a time men had a few things they desired:
they had wives that could not divorce them, who did as they were told, who obeyed and were plesant, and they married these females when the females were young women who just entered childbearing age (12, 13, 14 years of age.)
Today men are jailed for marital rape, for having relations with wives of theirs who are under 16 or 18 (depending on state/country), and are seperated from their families in divorce. Women are of little value to men today: they are competitors, not companions. They are the accusers and jailers of men, not comforters.
We live in the age of women's rights, and, aside from the pashtun in afghanistan and pakistan, that ideology has completely conqured the world.
Someday, perhaps, women's rights will die and Men's Liberty will reign again... but for now the seemingly global empire is too strong: those men who defy die or are imprisoned.
Funny to note on his site that his new year's resolution was to be "fearless":
http://hossgifford.com/2009/fearless/
I guess he messed that one up.
And to see him getting legal on one commenter ("Jennifer"):
http://hossgifford.com/2009/flashbelt/
Unbelievable..
Yes, it was a culture clash - he thought your culture was as depraved as ours (where such behavour has become commonplace). Perhaps he's thinking again now.
And ... "Hoss?" Really? Does he look like Dan Blocker? Now I have the "Bonanaza" theme stuck in my head.
Hopefully the Flash on the beach conference will learn from this. Last year I was shocked that they had hired a feamle stripper/go go dancer for the official party.
Ban the idiot.
I don't care how funny it is, it's not appropriate.
I think we should take everyone who watched this presentation and have them watch it again, this time w/ a bunch of gay porn drawings/images. I bet you a good majority of the room would be offended and they wouldn't think it's so funny any more.
So if you're a guy, ask yourself, do you want to see drawings of guy on guy in your face at a technical conference? Would that make you a little uncomfortable?
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