While issues around being a working mom aren't what Geek Girls Guide was created for, they are related. And today I read a something that I cannot let go unanswered.
A prominent mommy blogger (who I'll refer to as MB) appeared on a national talk show on 10/14. I refuse to say who she is, or what the show is, because I don't want to give them any more attention. Mainly because I think both parties are guilty of sensationalizing the working vs. stay-at-home moms issue for their own personal gain.
Here's the gist of MB's argument (as quoted in Huffington Post on October 14th), "I wouldn't outsource loving my husband, why would I outsource loving my kids?"
I have big, stankin' problems with this statement, and with the way in which it was presented. Let's begin the rant, shall we?
My two cents is this: in general, people who find it necessary to criticize the decisions made by other people are doing it because they are insecure. In the case of moms, perhaps because they're worried they made the wrong choice, whether that choice was working or staying home. Either way, it's wrong: what's right for my family may not be right for yours. Additionally, it's foolish to assume that not working makes you a good mom, or that working makes you a bad one. This is akin to arguments I've seen assuming that breastfeeding makes you a good mom and using formula makes you a bad mom. Nonsense! Mind your own business, I say. (And, by the way, I nursed my daughter 'til she was 22 months and am still nursing my 13-month-old son. So, I'm a "bad mom" for working but a "good mom" for nursing. I guess I break even?)
I chose to have two children, and I chose to keep working. I'm comfortable with that choice, and I feel no need to disparage anyone who chose differently.
While getting ready to go back to work after having my first child, a dear friend told me, "In the first week or two, you'll know. Your gut will either tell you that you need to stay home, or that it's okay to stay at work." She was right. The truth is, my gut told me that I love working. After having my second child, I helped institute a Babies @ Work program at my office, which I took advantage of until my son was 6 months old. He now spends days with his sister at a small home-based daycare near our home. Thanks to a husband who shares the parenting load, I feel great about going to work. I am lucky to work for a for a forward-thinking company that supports working parents, to have found a daycare provider that I trust, and to have a partner that shares in the parenting duties. Because of all that I can say, with confidence, that I am a good mom.
Here's a link to a longer blog post I wrote about being a working mom in 2008.
Working moms, at-home moms, working dads, at-home dads, employers and anyone else who cares: let's have a positive show of force against this kind of small-minded, sexist thinking and not reward those who choose to perpetuate it with undue attention.
It's so unproductive to reduce this argument to mom vs. mom, and I want to respond to this with something positive. I want this judgment between working and at-home moms to cease.
Let's stop this silliness, everyone!
Thanks for listening.
31 Previous comments:
Respectfully,
Jennifer Bohmbach
tweet: can we stop pitting working moms against stay at home moms in studies. need all kinds of moms 2 raise little ones. ur studies are not helpin 10:56 PM Oct 17th from TwitterRide
I think the one thing that needs to kick into high gear is us guys really need to if we are not already step up the game as husbands and fathers! I have had several conversations with very good woman friends about how I should start blogging to teach guys that they can be friends with woman without weird things happening. I think these friendships that form really start presenting a perspective to men we learn to appreciate and build coalitions to put this type of rhetoric in its place. It’s not healthy and does not help move either gender forward!
Thanks Geek Girls for promoting a platform of positive discussion and promotion to move both genders forward!
All Moms work. All Dads work. Where we do our work shouldn't matter, just that we like our jobs, because our kids know when we don't. Whether we're staggering home after a bitch of day at the office, or sitting on our asses at home using the TV for a babysitter. They know. So whatever you do, make the choice to enjoy it. And shut your pie-hole about the choices of your Momrades.
Bottom line, women should do what is right for THEM and their families and the hell with what anyone else says or thinks. Isn't that the most important job we're charged with, anyway?
And prominent mommy bloggers should get off their high horses and realize that accepting and respecting ALL women for who and what they are, and recognizing that we are all not the same, nor would we ever want to be is probably the best thing.
Women - we're all in this together - let's act like it!
here's my two cents. judgment of another says more about the person doing the judging than the person being judged. i like that you are not linking to this back to her / fueling the fire any further. live and let live... walk a mile in another persons shoes... all that. i don't really even want to judge MB as this adds nothing to the world.
love the perspective in comment #4... fellow moms, let's all work at this:
"Whether we're staggering home after a bitch of day at the office, or sitting on our asses at home using the TV for a babysitter. They know. So whatever you do, make the choice to enjoy it. And shut your pie-hole about the choices of your Momrades."
love to you all... and don't let this get you upset. fortunately there are many loving, supportive, accepting people in the world when it comes to this debate... and we can surround ourselves with them...
But, since there's no link to the original post (and therefore no way to put into context the relevant merits of both sides), I'll have to hang back on this one.
The item that perhaps she has missed is that 'it takes a village to raise a child'. I haven't read the book that has this as a title and know little of the author (I'm not American) but I strongly support the concept.
Saying "I will stay home with my babies to raise them and love them and care for them" is... twee. It sounds like fairyland.
If thats what you want to do, I have no problem with that, but you'd better make sure your kids are exposed to more than you :)
My eldest is 14 and I've *always* worked and I've mostly been the breadwinner. Heck, I was a single mum at one point and what was I supposed to do? Go on welfare? Now there's a constructive suggestion. Not.
There is no one good answer.
And the question of 'I wouldn't outsource loving my husband, why would I outsource loving my kids?" is - ridiculous.
She is confusing love with physical support.
So, she prepares every item of food for him, from planting the wheat and killing the lamb? No?
So, she makes every item of his clothing, from reaping the cotton, to weaving the fabric, to sewing them up? No?
How about the family cars? Is she planning on mining the metal and forging it in her backyard forge and building all the components? No?
No I am not freaking kidding.
OK, we have established we don't do everything to meet our family's every need.
Now we just need to establish what level of 'doing it for them' we can each accomplish - and that is an individual question.
Love? She thinks I sent my kids to childcare to be loved? I sent them their to be cared for. If they are loved it is because I chose great people who care about kids and my kids are inherently lovable.
We don't pay people to love out kids.
Umm, yeah, rants... :g:
Thanks for weighing in.
I disagree with you, though. If I wanted to feed the trolls, I'd be taking part in the insult-slinging that's happening on MB's web site (and probably on the show's message boards as well, though I don't have the heart to go check). I didn't think that would be productive. Instead, I'm saying to ALL parents (and any other interested parties): ENOUGH! Let's support each other. Staying home can be hard. Going to work can be hard. Being responsible for another human being is hard. So, let's stick together instead of picking each other apart.
The negative side of this conversation gets a lot of attention, because it's sensational (which seems to be our modern definition of newsworthy). I'd like to do what I can -- as small as that may be -- to turn things in a more positive direction. I feel good about that. Not speaking up when something is happening that I don't agree with is not a choice I want to make.
Cuspis Unum – You say, “MB's statement reduces the role of women (whether they work, or stay at home) to nurturing their children and servicing their husband. While I embrace both roles, I'd like to think that women have more to contribute to the world than that.” To which I say: Why do you seem to imply that the role of “Mother” and “Wife” is not enough for women or for the world? I as a professional person do not view my accomplishments as fuel for my own hubris but first something I do for my family and my family’s security and then secondly what I can do for the community. A “Mother” and “Wife” is the MOST important job one can have because it has the most direct influence on another human’s life. More so than any other human being you will encounter that is NOT family.
Cuspis duorum – You say, “The argument makes no mention of the role of fathers in nurturing, raising and loving children. She claims that she stated that fathers can stay home with kids, but that was edited out. Even so, why do moms who choose to work suffer her ire? Why is that any worse than fathers who "choose" to work?” To which I say: This is a kind of denial that there are profound innate differences between men and women. Differences that until recently every generation of every culture accepted for millennia. Men are not wired the same as women. As bad as we want to deny this it is a fact. Men should not be castigated for being wired differently..this is the way evolution made them. The way men nurture and teach their children is different then the way women do it. Men need to be involved in the development of their children’s lives but not in the same way women instinctually do especially in early childhood where the mother-child bond exists. Why change what has always worked? Because we want to prove something, have careers, or one up each other? I don’t get it.
Cuspis three – You say, “On MB's site, she has also posted an article about how offended she is over Yahoo!'s Hack Day stripper stunt. After reading her ridiculous statements about working moms, I'm now unsure of what offended her about the strippers: that one of them might have had kids at home that she wasn't taking care of? (I'm kidding, of course. Sorry, I just couldn't resist that dig.)” To which I say: This just smacks of moral relativist life philosophy. I don’t know the particulars about the issue in question but apparently now in our modern times we are not suppose to be able to make a “Value Judgments” on the idea that “mommy putting her body up for sale and display may not qualify as a good role model for little boys and girls at home…dare I say it even a “Good Parent”?” Yeah I don’t know what to say to that…apparently the idea that any kind of morality exists in the realm of human sexuality is now defunct in contemporary culture. Someone should notify the CDC.
Cuspis quattuor – You say, “She points out that her arguments are directed at moms who choose to work, not at those who have to. I fail to see how or why that disclaimer makes her argument okay. So, it's okay if you work, as long as you don't like it. What?!” To which I say: Economic realities being what they are…why would you ever have someone else raise your child if you didn’t have to? These are little human beings who look at their mother and father as God’s and can bring absolute joy into your life and instead you would choose your career? I don’t get it…is it “Peer Pressure”? When you’re on your death bed are you going to look back at your life and say…”Boy I’m sure glad I spent my time putting my best in for my boss or my all important career, even though I didn’t have to, while Sally and Billy were being raised by the local daycare. You will NEVER get that time back. This is egocentric at best…narcissistic at worst. Love your career more? Don’t have a family or kids.
I respectfully disagree with the positions. Hopefully I broke up the group think. I’m waiting to be attacked now.
The individual who made these particular comments is irrelevant; her quote is just the straw that broke this camel's back, and its part of a larger, tired old argument that goes like this:
"Stay-at-home moms are better than working moms because..."
"Working moms are better than stay-at-home moms because..."
How those sentences end -- and who says them -- doesn't matter. Because they are WRONG. We should all stick together. Support each other. Encourage each other. To quote a tweet I saw earlier, "stop baggin' on each other."
So, I hope you feel like you can chime in about that if you'd like to! I'd like to hear your thoughts. The only reason I didn't provide links is because I don't want to feed the negative fire. I'd like to start a new, more productive one that we can all gather around.
Regarding cuspis three -- right as you were posting your comment, I was actually republishing my post sans that comment about the strippers at Hack Day. It was a snide remark I made in the heat of the moment and isn't salient to the discussion. The fact that strippers shouldn't have been at that event is actually a point that MB and I agree wholeheartedly on. I was trying to make a joke about it, and it wasn't appropriate. Bottom line, I shouldn't have said it so I apologize to you and everyone else for that.
As far as the rest of your points go, I'm not debating who should stay at home and who should work. The only position being taken here is that we should stop judging other parents for the choices they are making. It's great that you're doing what works for your family. So am I. It's wonderful that we're each happy with our choices.
Live and let live. We're all doing the best we can at living our lives and loving our babies.
This is my favorite quote of the day!
"All Moms work. All Dads work. Where we do our work shouldn't matter, just that we like our jobs, because our kids know when we don't."
Thank you for that.
When you say... "These are little human beings who look at their mother and father as God’s and can bring absolute joy into your life and instead you would choose your career? I don’t get it."...you sound naive. Successful parents know that is not an either-or choice. I want my children to have a role model of a father who is engaged in the world and doing things. I want to balance that with my desire to be close to my children, physically and emotionally. I feel I do a pretty good job. My wife does, too. We both work our asses off.
Further, I want my children to have other role models, like teachers, babysitters, family. These people who take care of my children from time to time are making an important contribution to their development. In today's society, the very positive notion of "it takes a village" takes the form of babysitting, day care, school and play dates.
M.
http://hacscrap.blogspot.com/2009/10/endmommywars.html
thanks for such good insight.
Hillary
Couple Quotes here from: G.K Chesterton – “Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up……… Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
Michael,
Of course men, or the male species are wired differently. I can’t believe you can look throughout human history and float a postulate that the jury is still out on this. I never said their obligations are different, what I said or meant to say, is that the way they approach their obligations to raise children are different. And so what if they are is it wrong? Also, I am confused as to why making an observation about human historical observation now requires a labeling tactic response, (“Sexist”.) You want a career because you are a man and that has a lot to do with men’s wiring. The idea that women are “Not Wired” to nurture children would seem to go against everything we know about species in recorded history. I’m curious do you believe taking care of a family, large, small or extended is “not” at the least equivalent in terms of respect to a “Career”. However you define “Career”. Keep in mind children eventually grow up and parent’s time eventually gets freed up to do other things. Which, of course, is natural.
To your second point: Why is that statement naïve? Its perspective is completely from the view of the child. That is a bizarre straw man. I work, MY wife works, it is an economic reality for us but it is not what we want. We work are asses off too and try the best we can. None of these realities negate the original point…at all. Also, I agree with your position on father as role model in that context.
To your third point: Your statement seems to imply that “It takes a village” is the “Best Way” for children to be raised. Considering the fact that human beings have always lived in communities and that children for millennia, in major domus, were always raised by their mothers and fathers. To your point, is it logical to assume then that you believe these children were incapable of having “Outside Role Models” BECAUSE they were raised by their immediate family? My point is…you can still have other role models AND be raised by your mother and father. I don’t get your third point at all. Perhaps you mean before kids go to school that it is a necessity for the psychological well-being of 0-to 5 years to have outside-the-family role models?
http://twitter.com/ruby/status/5070922608
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rubyji/tags/endmommywars/
A career, in my definition, is achieving things professionally. As honorable and respectable as raising children is, it's not a career.
Children may want Mommy and Daddy all the time but it's not good for them. Children need more experiences than they get at home all day with their parents. Frankly, parents need more than that as well. Neither my wife or I would stay home with our kids all day even if we could. We want to participate in the professional world and we want our kids to have broader experiences.
It may be confusing because I am debating your ideas and those of MB. I don't know which of her ideas you share. But I am arguing that day care and babysitting are not only not negative things, they are positive things.
M.
You must be real smart, cuz you use Latin, but you are missing the point by a mile.
The point is: A woman can be a good, nurturing mom and have a career.
No matter how many overly wordy comments you post, that point is irrefutable. Some women are doing it right now, and many have done it in the past.
Regards,
Jennifer
Let's face it - it's hard being a parent. It's hard trying to balance the needs of everyone in a family without losing yourself in the process. It's hard being someone who's involved in shaping the mind of a little human. That is no small responsibility. It's hard paying the bills and creating a safe space that really feels like 'home'. The thing you learn as you get more comfortable in your role as a 'parent' is - there is no one method for success. Parents learn to take the things they find along the way and incorporate what works, customize for their own family, discard the stuff that doesn't work, and just basically do the best they can. The important thing is never losing sight of the best interests of the children. Being a parent is hard enough without the opinions of other parents.
I was raised by a working mother - an educated, powerful, respected working mother. I have often said (and have said it on this blog) that her success helped shape how I view the world. Because of who she was, I never doubted my own potential or my own power. That was a gift my mother gave me. And, because I know her much better now, as an adult I can honestly say my mother should not have been a stay-at home mom. It would have been a waste of brains and talent and passion and she would have resented me. I have no doubt that my story would be very different if my mother had not pursued her path. I don't regret that part of my childhood. I am proud of her.
At the same time, I know many devoted stay-at-home moms. Mothers who are well suited for and deeply invested in the time they spend with their children. I believe completely in the benefits of that kind of maternal energy. If a woman chooses to spend her time at home, mothering her children - I respect her. She is working hard. I don't judge her. It's not my choice. It's not my child. I can only do what is best for *my* child and *my* family.
Women have had enough trouble gaining equal voice and equal ground. We're finally in a place that reflects all of the good work and great thinking of our gender. Why do we insist on beating each other up? Why do we continue to judge and project our own crap on each other? We need to find ways to support each other. We need to honor the brilliance and beauty and richness and diversity in the choices and contributions that we make. Some women are better moms because of their work and their passions. Their stories are different than those of their stay-at-home counterparts. But they are no less valid. I can't help but think that as a community we would be so much more valuable and helpful to each other if we learned tolerance and acceptance. We'd be stronger as a voice if we stopped judging and started sharing successes and perspective. I can't help but believe that our children can only benefit from our respect for choices and each other. There is just so much good we could be doing with that energy. If we redirected our judgment and condemnation of other moms who are just doing their best and making choices that suit their family needs -- if we channeled that into something positive -- I have to believe our children would win. I don't know about you -- but that's what matters to me.
Your right I'm smart. Anyways, I'm not missing the point, your missing mine. My point is, "You can't be a better Mother then someone who is a full time Mother". Just like you can't be a better engineer then someone who is a full time engineer. Just like you can't be a better President unless you are a full time President. This seems logical. This seems reasonable. If you want to "Exception is the Rule Me" fine. All things being equal, I think that rule holds. Its not a condemnation of working mothers or economic realities..it just "is". Facing reality is a quite liberating experience no matter how hard it greats at our fine sensibilities.
Your analogy is ridiculous. I guess you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.
To save time, here is my response to your next self-aggrandizing comment:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Douches bagges.
You are not going to get any argument from me that there are "Deadbeat Dad's” out there. I have no defensive position for them. I'm sure you will join me in the fact that there are also "Deadbeat Mom's" out there as well right? Regarding child rearing, good men providing child rearing in other ways that are different than women, there is nothing wrong with those ways, they are just different.
Regarding your position on “Career”, if someone chooses “not” to have a career, I would assume you have no beef with that, especially if you acknowledge that being a full time parent is respectable and honorable. I fall on the Godfather side of things, family is everything, what I can do for friends and the community is a fast follower.
I agree completely that children need broad experiences. I do not want to create “Needy” kids. The hair split is what age they should start experiencing those differences and what those differences are.
My position is that daycare and babysitting ARE negative things, especially if economically they are not needed or if you have put excessive material comfort ahead of your family. Eventually kid’s go to school right? Then it is a different story.
I'm only cashing in on the straw man check you issued to me. You have my deepest humblest apologies for using "Latin". Who do I think I am anyways? Anyways...
Ah ha! You fell for my trap! My preemptive response to your next comment answers your question. "Who do I think I am anyways?" Look at the last two words: "Douches bagges." There is your answer! ;-)
In any event, if you want to get right on this subject read the comment by Nancy Lyons. She nails it.
The only DATA that I have seen is that kids 'turn out' better when mom is happy with her choice, either way.
In this "war" I continue to be amazed at the lack of attention to data. The "debate" seems to devolve quickly into emotion and opinion -- not the factors that lead to the positive outcomes. Give me data. Enough with the punditry.
I believe most moms are just plain smart enough to know that there isn't only one way to be a good mother. see my blog here www.matternow.com/blog
Happy Friday!